Official Luthiers Forum!

One has to ask.........???
1. What rod does not blow out in the back?
2. What rod does not break?
3. What rod does not rattle?
4. What rod stiffens the neck?
Just wondering.
Tom

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A person who has never made a mistake has never made anything!!!

Tom you can go the ole Martin T-bar route but adjustments are a little inconvenient when you have to compression refret the thing to make changes....

Not to open a can of worms but I never really got-it.... about adding CF or other stiffeners to necks.

It seems to me said in my best Columbo imitation that the stiffer one makes a neck the more work the truss rod may have to do. The more work the truss rod has to do the greater the opportunity to have ventilation added to the back of our necks... unintentionally

It could be that I have never experienced a neck that needs additional stiffeners and I have experienced plenty of what Dan Earlywine calls "rubber necks."

Being firmly in the camp that not adding an adjustable truss rod is a bad idea (classical or vintage reproductions exempted from this comment) it kind of sort of defies logic to me to additionally add stiffeners that reduce the impact of adjusting the rod. Go figure....

There is also a lot to be said for the old compression rods, simple, they work, less weight, etc. and you can make them yourself so less expensive as well.

Those are interesting questions Tom and coincidentally this is something I've been looking in to because I'm launching my custom CNC acoustic necks right now and I'd like to steer people to a rod that won't potentially give me any grief down the road. The conclusion I'm coming to is that current Martin 2-way rod seems to be one of the best ones out there for the following reasons:

1) For blow out as I mentioned before, the Martin rod uses a round bottom slot which effectively removes any stress risers a sharp corner would have. i.e. it spreads out the load more than a flat bottomed channel.

2) I've been poling experienced repair guys (hi Hesh) and I haven't found anyone yet who's had to repair a broken Martin truss rod. Perhaps other repair guys can weigh in on this one.

3) Rattle - no experience on this but they're wrapped in plastic shrink wrap. I do have something I'll touch on in a moment

4) They're definitely stiffer than wood. On top of that, I just weighed a few and they're only around 140g each.

Then there's this important point - there have been some other discussions on warranty on this forum and Martin has a very liberal warranty policy. Unlike the small luthier, large corporations must estimate warranty costs and hold back revenue based on these estimates. Martin makes thousands of guitars a year and a truss rod repair is a very costly one - hundreds of dollars. If they can avoid warranty costs associated with truss rod warranties, that's more money on the bottom line for them.

For that reason, I've found a source for Martin OEM truss rods and will have them as an option for my custom neck line. They come in two sizes for 14 fret and 12 fret models (~ 14" and 13") that should accommodate a variety of scale lengths in addition to the Martin Standard.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Andy brings up a great point and what should be a major motivator too making truss rod selection very important.

For those who sell and offer a warranty if your truss rod fails being SOL is a bit of an understatement in so much as the liability costs and time associated with this sort of failure would be very much a place that no one wants to go... What makes it even worse in my view is this sort of failure, a truss rod, would be an indication of less than stellar judgement in terms of your selection process as well.... Not good.

A bit of a plug for CF Martin Guitars. Yesterday I had a long conversation with a fellow at CFM who deals with we Martin authorized service centers. I brought up how liberal Martin's warranty is and so the conversation, a great conversation by the way, went in that direction.

There are two primary aspects to consider when considering a company such as CF Martin and their warranty. First there is the difficulty, major difficulty from an accounting and profit/loss view of the concept of "recognizable revenue" when offering a lifetime warranty and second there is lots of room for abuse of this great warranty as well. We also all know that guitars are at times not the most robust, abuse resistant things out here....

Regarding recognizable revenue a portion of the proceeds from a guitar sale cannot be immediately recognized as revenue or used as same either.... per IRS regulations. Instead this portion has to be set aside for the event of a warranty claim well into the future.... The IRS is not likely to audit the garage builder Loofier (unless you have the words Tea Party on your web site... )but when an organization is Martin's size there is no where to hide.

Martin's warranty is by far the best in the business IME and they will go to great lengths to cover "legitimate" warranty claims. Nonetheless if you did not register your warranty say 30 years ago and need warranty service now, say a neck reset, Martin makes it easy to register now and then they will cover the costs. I also know of instances where the person attempting to register a warranty 35 years after the sale... did not have the original receipt. Martin accepted a photograph of a kid with a tooth missing holding the guitar and covered the repairs.

I was told yesterday that even CF Martin himself is well known to be a huge customer advocate and prefers to error on the side of the client. I love a company run by an executive with a long view of being in business and an absolute devotion to their clients.

Now I was also told that things are changing and this model was not sustainable and I most certain can see why as well.

What does this have to do with truss rods? Much because those of us who offer a warranty for our lifetime as a Loofier... the standard that we all are following has been Martin all along since this is what they did only not limiting the warranty to the lifetime of the current generation of the principals of the company.

To me if a truss rod fails and I was the bright bulb that selected that specific rod it's all on me and I am obligated to fix it regardless of the work or costs.

That's part of a my-life time as a Loofier warranty that I provide.

Taking it a step further the folks at Martin are both impressive and bright guys and they have to as Andy suggested factor in the potential liability of failed rods into their rod engineering or selection process.

As such going to school on a quality company such as Martin with rod selection seems like a very good idea to me. Might be time for me to switch to a Martin rod as well.

Good thread!

Another vote for the Martin 2 way-stout construction-a little turn really moves the neck-easy installation. I only wish it was a little lighter.

I have used 5 different types and have settled on this one.

I broke an LMI welded rod once-not fun.

I have not used the Martin style rod but think I'll check it out. Is the Martin style rod that LMI sells the same rod that Martin uses?

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Jim Watts
http://jameswattsguitars.com

Jim, you can buy the Martin rods direct from Martin here.
http://www.martinguitar.com/guitar-make ... l?start=90
Ken

FWIW, I seem to recall that LMI was importing their rods for a while, and they had a few problems. Now they are manufactured locally. (please correct me if I'm wrong)
I recently installed one and the weld looks very good and solid.

I like the idea of the Martin rods, but I've been concerned that the relatively large thermal expansion coefficient of aluminum will cause tuning instability. I don't suppose anyone has tested this? Perhaps it doesn't matter much if it is allowed to slip slightly inside the neck.

Greg,

We're talking about the new Martin 2-way truss rod. As far as I can tell (they're shrink wrapped in plastic) they're an all steel design.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Hmm, I guess my last response didn't submit. . .

I see a 12 and 14 fret single action truss rod on the Martin site but only one 2-way rod. Do they only offer a 2-way for 14 fret necks, are they intended for use in both, or am I missing something? How long is the 2-way rod?

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

There are two lengths of rod, one is 14" for 14 fret necks and wrapped in blue, the other is 13-1/4-ish and wrapped in black. A buddy of mine orders for both of us so I'm not sure how it correlates to what's on the website.

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http://www.birkonium.com CNC Products for Luthiers
http://banduramaker.blogspot.com

Good to know Andy, thanks! The only one (currently) on the website is wrapped in black plastic though it offers no detail as to length or size neck it is intended for; as far as I know they may use the same picture for both. I suppose one would have to call rather than just ordering off the website and taking one's chances.

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

Last time I was in the 1883 shop they had both sizes so I bought several of each. The folks there were super helpful and said to contact them if I had any questions or needed anything so you might drop them an email.

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I make my own one way Cumpiano style truss rods. I can make them any length I want and they weigh about the same as a two way rod. I just preload them a bit before I level the fretboard. There are no welds to break but I suppose you could strip the threads if you were too aggressive tightening them. It's never been a problem for me. I like access through the soundhole to minimize the potential for breaking the head off in an accident.

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Ken Franklin
clumsy yet persistent
https://www.kenfranklinukulele.com

I haven't seen mention of the rods Allied sells. I have been using them since I started building and they seem to do what they are asked to do but I've hardly put them through much of a test. A little tweek here and there. My complaint with them is They provide you with an allen key for the rod, I probably have 30, and 95% fit sloppy in the rod. It's like they give you the closest Imperial key to fir a metric slot. Other than that the rods seem to be of good quality. Anyone else use them?

my vote is 100% for Allied two-way rods. 35+ guitars...zero breaks and/or failures.
Jay

Just to follow up. I finally got around to needing that 12 fret truss rod. I emailed Martin customer service to see which size (2 way rod) was listed on the website. Gail emailed me back and told me to call her to order. When I called later that day she even remembered my name and when I asked how long it was she put down the phone and went to measure one (13 3/8"). She told me the 12 fret version had dropped off the website for some reason. The customer service was so good, I bought a two rods. Now I guess I'll have to make another 12 fretter some day!

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Bryan Bear PMoMC

Take care of your feet, and your feet will take care of you.

I got a chance to meet Gail and her co-workers in person last year. Nice folks

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Steve Smith
"Music is what feelings sound like"

I just don't get the two way rod thing. With all that string tension, if you need to push the neck up with the rod you better figure out what the hell is going on in your building process. what am I missing?

We use both the single action (aluminum) and double action Martin TR's in practice and in our KMG kits -- the repair guys/gals may be able to verify the usefulness of a two-way rod. I figure Martin does not want to mess with warranty issues so they have tested to assure a high quality component is installed in their guitars -- works for me.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

Right - in a perfect world with a well built neck, best practices in fretting, etc. a one way rod should be all that is ever needed, right?

Not entirely.... Regardless of how well built the instrument may be and how straight the neck may be stuff happens... For example an instrument that is permitted to dry out to a large degree may develop a back bow or even a profound back bow. We see this frequently this time of year with furnaces on, homes drying out, and guitar owners who don't know that they need to humidify their instruments under certain conditions...

Yesterday I set-up an archtop that had been permitted to dry out and even though it was an archtop the top had sunken because of the level of drying out that this instrument was permitted to have... The neck was in a lot of back bow so much so that string tension could not pull it out of back bow. The existence of a double action rod saved the day for this guitar and this is not an all that unusual occurrence either. I would guess that I've seen several like this one in only the last 4 weeks or so, all dried out, all rehumidified, all took a set with the neck in back bow and fortunately all had double action rods and it was not a big deal and could be adjusted out.

When there is not a double action rod we have to do slightly more unnatural acts when a neck takes a set with back bow. Slipping the fret board, heat treating, etc. Much more invasive when you consider that adjusting a truss rod is not invasive at all.... There is a camp, and I have one foot in it too, that does not believe that heat treatment will always take and stay that way either...

We can't always know where one of our creations may end up and who may be caring for it.... or not.... As such anything that I build with commercial intent is always going to have a double action rod if it has a rod at all so that the instrument has options when the human who is the current steward fails to care for it appropriately and stuff happens.

Kind of cheap insurance in my view too to have a double action rod.

The same logic on my part also applies to having a rod at all... Folks frequently ask if it's even necessary and at times indicate that they favor CF reinforcement and no rod. Sure Martin built for decades without adjustable rods as well but..... not anymore.....

Just as a double action rod is cheap insurance should the day come that the range of adjustment is necessary the very existence of a truss rod is also cheap insurance to help the instrument continue to provide for years of service.

Years ago I had a conversation with Dick Boak (prior to Martin using adjustable truss rod) my comment was simply "when are you guys (Martin) going to enter the 20th century and use a modern truss rod" -- basically he said "tradition, tradition tradition getting the board to agree on such a massive change is a tedious painful process no matter what the logic." Seems times have indeed changed they've got something new to announce on a regular basis.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

That surprises me Hesh, I'm sure you do a higher volume than I do but I almost never encounter back bowed necks and not for a lack of dryness. Here in Colorado necks come in with frets sticking out like steak knives.
I still have to wonder, if a neck is saved by a double rod, what was the situation on day one. What is the mechanism for back bowing a neck from dryness? The difference in longitudinal shrinkage between the fretboard and neck? leaving a guitar unstrung with the truss rod cranked in the heat? If someone crushes tangs too large for the slot in during a re-fret should we build in anticipation of that guy?
I'd rather leave the caulking gun in the basement and use a well designed compression rod. Just my humble opinion.
So many questions will be answered when a little inexpensive chip inside an instrument can record heat and humidity history and send an alert message to your phone.
Or better yet, a message to your luthier so they can dispatch an emergency response team to rappel out of helicopters and save your guitar and collar you for being so reckless.

I'd rather use a simple compression rod too David but from what we see and pretty often too double action rods can save an ax from either uber expensive repairs or being relegated to the attic because it's unplayable.

Steak knife fret ends, sure, Michigan does that too very nicely my cut up hands will agree....

We have two instruments in the shop at present that this discussion would be interested in. First is that archtop with the double action rod that saved it's day and the second is a major, quality brand, US, without a double action rod. It's been heat treated and is OK at present but any more back bow and it's toast or needs to be shake and baked again....

We do see a lot of guitars and many more than most with very high volumes here.... and growing... We also see lots of vintage stuff and pre-war instruments frequently as well.

As for mechanism differential expansion/contraction of dissimilar materials is likely most of it. Although I have seen guitars a number of times that had back bow built in and were relying on the rod to correct this, a double action rod fortunately.

My car can now call home or call for help if I can't.... dang thing.... We might see guitars gaining a bit of intelligence one day too but personally and between us David I'm not looking forward to this. The thing would likely send me a text message when I am playing complaining about what a lousy player I am..... Everyone's a critic I tell ya....

Dick is describing just how conservative Martin can be at times. After all they are kind of sort of the standard by which many, not all.... judge all others. They also have some real successes to be very proud of and this likely makes the corporate culture one of pressing on with what they know and do best while being adverse to any new fangled notion such as a truss rod..... Please note sarcasm....

Change for this kind of an organization can be scary but on the other hand even Martin has their own torrification initiative these days and as such is pushing the envelope and perhaps advancing the craft with a bit of a vengeance. The trick may be paying attention to the company heritage while never risking the farm on something new.... Incremental growth!!!!

I would be very interested to see what someone like Price Waterhouse might advise Chris Martin these days in terms of the prospects for the future and what the 21st century guitar manufacturer needs to be to continue to have a winning market position.